Did Gordon Sondland Perjure Himself?
If David Holmes’ testimony is true, then the answer is “Yes.”
This is a long post for “Impeachment Geeks” only. It’s based, not on a news report, but on a reading of key discrepancies between Sondland’s and Holmes’ testimonies. So if you’re interested in my take on how I believe Sondland lied to Congress, read on. Otherwise, you could wait a few days and I imagine Rachel Maddow will be doing a much better job of nailing this down.
Holmes, an embassy staffer in Kiev, testified at the impeachment hearings on Friday that he was present when Sondland called Trump. The relevant section of his opening statement is just below.
But first, some quick background: Holmes starts this section with a reference to a meeting that just ended. This was a meeting in Kiev between Sondland and Andriy Yermak, adviser to Ukrainian President Zelensky. Significantly, Holmes was supposed to be the note-taker at this meeting, but was excluded at the last minute because he was told that “Ambassador Sondland and Mr. Yermak … insisted that the meeting be one-on-one, with no note-taker.” So Holmes waited outside the meeting. From what you will read in his testimony, it’s obvious that Sondland and Yermak were privately discussing Trump’s request for an investigation into the Bidens.
When the meeting ended, the two staffers and I accompanied Ambassador Sondland out of the Presidential Administration Building and to the embassy vehicle. Ambassador Sondland said that he wanted to go to lunch. I told Ambassador Sondland that I would be happy to join if he wanted to brief me on his meeting with Mr. Yermak or discuss other issues, and Ambassador Sondland said that I should join. The two staffers joined for lunch as well.
The four of us went to a nearby restaurant and sat on an outdoor terrace. I sat directly across from Ambassador Sondland and the two staffers sat off to our sides. …
During the lunch, Ambassador Sondland said that he was going to call President Trump to give him an update. Ambassador Sondland placed a call on his mobile phone, and I heard him announce himself several times, along the lines of “Gordon Sondland holding for the President.” It appeared that he was being transferred through several layers of switchboards and assistants. I then noticed Ambassador Sondland’s demeanor change, and understood that he had been connected to President Trump. While Ambassador Sondland’s phone was not on speakerphone, I could hear the President’s voice through the earpiece of the phone. The President’s voice was very loud and recognizable, and Ambassador Sondland held the phone away from his ear for a period of time, presumably because of the loud volume.
I heard Ambassador Sondland greet the President and explain that he was calling from Kyiv. I heard President Trump then clarify that Ambassador Sondland was in Ukraine. Ambassador Sondland replied, yes, he was in Ukraine, and went on to state that President Zelenskyy “loves your ass.” I then heard President Trump ask, “So, he’s gonna do the investigation?” Ambassador Sondland replied that “he’s gonna do it,” adding that President Zelenskyy will do “anything you ask him to.” …
After the call ended, … I … took the opportunity to ask Ambassador Sondland for his candid impression of the President’s views on Ukraine. In particular, I asked Ambassador Sondland if it was true that the President did not “give a s__t about Ukraine.” Ambassador Sondland agreed that the President did not “give a s__t about Ukraine.” I asked why not, and Ambassador Sondland stated that the President only cares about “big stuff.” I noted that there was “big stuff” going on in Ukraine, like a war with Russia, and Ambassador Sondland replied that he meant “big stuff” that benefits the President, like the “Biden investigation” that Mr. Giuliani was pushing. The conversation then moved on to other topics.
Note how the bolded statements in Holmes’ testimony contradict parts of Sondland’s testimony excerpted below.
A little more background: Sondland claimed that, until sometime in mid-August, 2019, he didn’t know Hunter Biden was connected with the gas company, Burisma. And by extension, he claimed that until that time he never understood that an investigation of Burisma was, in effect, an investigation of the Bidens. He was very, very clear about this timeline throughout his entire testimony (if you search for “August” in the transcript you will see how often he made this claim). What he was trying to do is give the impression that he was an unwitting accomplice – he knew he was asking Ukraine to make a statement about investigating Burisma, but he thought that was a legitimate attempt to uproot corruption in general. He claims he had no way of knowing that it was actually a scheme by Trump to smear his political rival.
Sondland was also adamant that he wasn’t seeking any actual investigations by the Ukrainians, just a press statement from them saying they were going to launch investigations. This is all evident as Sondland’s testimony unfolds – you can read the full testimony, but I’m just trying to save you some time. Now to focus on a relevant section.
P. 70.
[CHAIRMAN SCHIFF]: …The President directs you to talk to Rudy Giuliani. And it’s your testimony here today that you never looked at any of his TV appearances, you never read any of the articles, you never saw any of the media that Rudy Giuliani did in which Rudy Giuliani talked about his interest and the President’s interest in an investigation into the Bidens and this energy company that Joe Biden’s son worked for. You never saw any of that?
AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Not then. Very much later, but not then.
THE CHAIRMAN: So it’s your testimony, I think, from your opening statement and what you said just now, that up until the moment you read the call record in September you were completely oblivious to Rudy Giuliani 's interest in Burisma because it involved the Bidens?
AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I became aware of his interest in Burisma sometime in the intervening period, but I never made the connection between Burisma and the Bidens until the very end. That is my testimony. I heard the word “Burisma,” but I didn’t understand that Biden and Burisma were connected.
…
THE CHAIRMAN: … when you were interacting with the Ukrainians and seeking an investigation involving Burisma, did you know then that the real interest was the Bidens?
AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: I was seeking a press statement so that we could get the meeting for Zelensky to the White House. That’s all I was seeking. I wasn’t seeking any investigation. [Note from @Keaton_James: This is mid-to-late August - see for example, p. 295 of the transcript.]
THE CHAIRMAN: And my question is, at the time you were seeking that, did you know of the connection between the Bidens and Burisma?
AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: No. Because I would not – I would not endorse investigating the Bidens. I would not endorse investigating –
THE CHAIRMAN: So you completely missed all the Giuliani media appearances and all the public debate about the President’s interest and Giuliani’s interest in the Bidens, you missed all of that?
AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Yeah. It wasn’t of concern to me.
MR. GOLDMAN: At some point you did make the connection, though, right?
AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Yeah.
MR. GOLDMAN: And now, in retrospect, you understand that that’s what Rudy Giuliani was advocating for?
AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: Yeah, I do.
THE CHAIRMAN: Can I ask you this then. Had you known at the time that the interest in an investigation involving Burisma was really an interest in investigating the Bidens, would you have pressed the Ukrainians to do that investigation?
AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: No.
THE CHAIRMAN: Your answer was no?
AMBASSADOR SONDLAND: No.
Conclusion: If Holmes’ testimony is true, Sondland committed three lies (at least) under oath, but first note:
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I’m setting aside the bombshell here that Sondland’s phone call with Trump and subsequent discussion with Holmes implicates Trump. I’m focusing only on how Sondland perjured himself.
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When comparing Sondland’s testimony with Holmes’, remember that the restaurant meeting where Holmes overheard Sondland talking with the President took place in July, 2019.
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By his own testimony, Sondland had never spoken to Giuliani until August 1 or 2, 2019, when Sondland joined Giulani’s Ukraine team (see p. 190). A couple weeks later they worked together on a press statement. Sondland references this press statement many times throughout his testimony as a means of anchoring his recollections of what happened in mid-August (e.g., p 295). He claims that it was in this mid-August time frame that he first understood Hunter Biden worked for Burisma – but that’s where he goes off the rails and commits perjury on at least three counts.
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Sondland lied when he said he did not know before mid-August, 2019, that Hunter Biden was connected with Burisma. He must have known this because in July, he spoke with Holmes about investigations into the Bidens.
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Sondland lied when he said he didn’t know before mid-August that Giuliani was interested in investigating the Bidens. He specifically mentions to Holmes in July that it was Giuliani who was pushing the investigation into the Bidens.
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Sondland lied when he said he was not seeking any investigations at all, but was only seeking a press statement. When Holmes hears Trump ask Sondland if Zelensky is going to do the investigation, Sondland replies “he’s gonna do it.”
I just focused on this one section, but if you browse through Sondland’s testimony, you can locate other instances where he tells these same lies and perhaps others. I’m sure every single lie that he told is now being culled out of the transcript by lawyers on the House Intelligence Committee.
Here’s another example of possible perjury from p. 216:
Q: But the press statement was about the investigations, correct?
SONDLAND: Well, all I can do is repeat to you what I heard through Ambassador Volker from Giuliani. That’s the only source this would have come from, because the President never discussed it with any of us.
But we know from Holmes’ testimony that the President did, indeed, discuss investigations with Sondland.
By lying to Congress, Sondland obstructed justice. Roger Stone was just convicted of these same crimes and for that he will most surely be spending years behind bars. I wonder if the seriousness of what Sondland has done is just now sinking into his brain. This weekend he may be contemplating what it would be like to trade a $60 million dollar lifestyle for hard time in a prison cell.