WTF Community

Day 390

1/ I was not aware that there is an other way to learn politics than be involved in it. I’m sure that there was a lot of unknowns that Trump never ever realized were occurring within our government. Just as you and I don’t know the details that goes on in DC. We only know what is filtered to us by the media including the Whitehouse media.

2/ You stated “He decided not to impose the sanctions because “the mere threat of sanctions will deter Russia’s aggressive behavior.”” Are you saying he (Trump) made this statement or someone in his administration?
If you mean someone in his administration then would you also agree that any statement made by any staff member is T’s fault.

If you do a search on “the mere threat of sanctions will deter Russia’s aggressive behavior” you will see it say " The State Department claims". I have not seen Who in the state department made the statement. Do you know who said it cause I’d love to know? It truly is a stupid statement to make.

Do sanctions work? https://www.huffingtonpost.com/daniel-wagner/do-sanctions-work_b_7191464.html

Do we really want to piss off & alienate Russia and have them become our enemy? I hope not.
What is that saying “keep your friends close and your enemies closer”.

Today’s indictments from Mueller certainly highlight the issue about how the Russians are manipulating and dispersing our data. Where / How / what data/ to whom are they dispersing it to?

Let me count the ways…

It may not be the voter rolls YET, but it could very well happen given that many states have opted to use electronic balloting. (not sure of the ratio, and need to look that up, but now very few voting districts offer paper ballots). (see case for paper ballots - Paper ballots are hack-proof. It's time to bring them back.)

Having Russia use social media to sway opinions with false data and pay for lists that include White Nationalists, Nazi’s, Bernie lovers, Bernie haters, Hillary’s undecided voters is MANIPULATION of our data. There is not a law prohibiting it, nor are social media groups doing an about face on this, but Russia’s intentions has been to stealthily maneuver data and creep into the mindsets of Americans who for better or worse were believers, gullible and/or disaffected in their views towards government.

The fact that the DNC’s emails were hacked (as were the RNC’s but not released to Wikileaks) is in and of itself manipulation of our data. Within those emails, contained private information - opinions, working knowledge of what campaign members were thinking.(see Dick Nixon - dirty tricks) And to have the Russians exploit this information as Mueller and Rosenstein are revealing today to turn the election towards Trump, away from Clinton, and foment discord is beyond alarming.

And from what the NYT’s is writing today about these 13 indictments today - I quote: “The Russians stole the identities of American citizens, posed as political activists and used the flash points of immigration, religion and race to manipulate a campaign in which those issues were already particularly divisive, prosecutors said.” 13 Russians Indicted as Mueller Reveals Effort to Aid Trump Campaign - The New York Times

So, there is a wave of manipulation from the Russians.

The other points in your response to me have already been dissected above and we do not need to go down that path again regarding whether sanctions were willfully ignored by T or not. I do think T should be doing a better job at handling these details, and strongly feel he is not up to the job.

We’ve already reached the ‘sell-by’ date that this Commander in Chief has a strong working knowledge of his job, and even more paramount an ability to lead. He does not…he’s weak on facts; he maneuvers defensively; he calls for Congress to work together, but he defies them as well, but subjecting them to his veto power (see DACA vote) he baits North Korea into some kind of nuclear test: he wants military parades; he shamelessly self-promotes; he returns to his base over and over again, instead of leading the entire country.

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Matt beat me to it here - completely agree.

Also, to me, actions speak louder than words. Here are the actions re: sanctions:

  • 7/25: Congress passed legislation to implement sanctions against Russia, North Korea & Iran with a veto-proof majority
  • 8/2: Trump finally signs the bill (begrudgingly); very likely he only signed just because Congress had the votes to override a veto, if he chose to go that route
  • 10/1: Trump misses the first deadline re: the Russian sanctions
    • It was only after inquires from Senators McCain, Corker and Cardin the administration began the process of what needed to be done right before the deadline (which should have started shortly after the bill was signed, in order to meet the 10/1 deadline).
  • 10/13: The Iran sanctions portion of the bill are fully implemented, more than 15 days before the due date (10/31).
  • 1/29: Deadline #2 for Russian sanctions
    • The day of the deadline, the administration announced that they will not issue the sanction “yet” saying the mere law itself acts as a “deterrent”.
    • One of the items due was a list of identified Russian Oligarchs, which finally did late in the day. However the list turned out to truly be a joke, since it was quite literally copied from Forbes.

So all-in-all, simply looking at the actions it’s pretty obvious is clearly intentionally avoiding implementing sanctions against Russia for reasons other than what they finally said (at the 11th hour, at that). No matter how one interprets the actions laid out, it’s impossible to come to the conclusion that they are acting in good faith to protect the country. In addition, he can’t play the “newbie” card because they were able to implement the Iran sanctions well in advance of the deadline.


ABC News has a good timeline, which goes through the October on what’s gone down around this all.

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News flash: Russia is already our enemy. Putin is totally against democratic ways- that’s why he
manipulates their “elections” to make sure he wins. How can you ever consider a country that kills
off or imprisons their critics to silence them as any sort of potential “friend” of the U.S.A.? It’s not like comparing apples & oranges…it’s more like, oh I don’t know, comparing apples & tear gas.

Were you aware that back in 2011 Putin blamed the U.S. for interfering in their internal affairs (elections).
Sounds like Russia’s are doing what they accused the U.S. of doing back in 2011. Reading the older articles you get the distinct impression that Putin does not like Hillary. So you could say that Putin may have wanted retribution for 2011? This does not make it right but this is politics. Possibly T was just the fall guy and whom ever was the Republican candidate who ran against her would be in the same predicament.

Yes there has been other manipulation by the Russians as well, between 2009 and 2015(Mikerin) . So there was 7 years of Russian Manipulation on various platforms yet nothing has been done from the prior administration. I know many would like to blame it all on T but the prior administration’s needs to take some responsibility on this as well.

As the Supreme Court said, vote fraud has been present in our elections throughout our entire history.

We can only hope to vote for politicians that will Fix or at least tighten up these issues rather than fight amongst themselves.

shamelessly self-promoting is a job requirement of the President or presidential candidate. Both Obama and Hillary are great at that as well.

I’m just saying do you really want the U.S to start a war with Russia.

I agree to disagree with you. Not down with your assumptions…and particularly this one.

Going on to the next area to explore here. Thank you.

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The January 2017 DNI report lays out Putin’s motivations, citing heavily his dislike of Hillary. Specifically from the “Putin Ordered Campaign To Influence US Election” section (p. 1):

Putin most likely wanted to discredit Secretary Clinton because he has publicly blamed her since 2011 for inciting mass protests against his regime in late 2011 and early 2012, and because he holds a grudge for comments he almost certainly saw as disparaging him.

However, just because Putin blames her, does not mean that she actually did anything. There has been no evidence to support Putin’s claims.

Which SCOTUS opinion is this in reference to? Because in 2008, in the Crawford v. Marion County Election Board case, which upheld Indiana voter ID laws, they stated on the record, that the case:

“contains no evidence of any [in-person voter impersonation] fraud actually occurring in Indiana at any time in its history.”

There are tons of studies, legal opinions, etc that voter fraud is extremely, extremely rare: Debunking the Voter Fraud Myth

Nobody wants this, but the implementation of sanctions does not translate to war. Russia is constantly dealing with sanctions, not just with the US - the Magnitsky Act has already been adopted in the UK and Canada, as well as other countries and it’s support keeps growing. But Russia has always been an adversary to the US, dating way back to before the Cold War - even if at times it was a “fre-enemy” situation.

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I think it’s safe to say we’re knee deep in the weeds on this and now is a good time to close this topic. :call_me_hand:

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Wanna include a link so we can check out the reference?

Sure thing…

This is the most asinine idea! IQ45 has no idea! A box of food? Really? OMG!

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Am wondering from a legal perspective, if this were true and Michael Cohen paid this out of his own pocket, without a trace from the GOP coffers, is this putting him in a better spot as opposed to letting Mueller find out that money was filtered thru the Campaign coffers and that this may be a John Edwards redeux? Seems like Michael Cohen has been with T for so long, knows where all the bodies are buried, etc and would seemingly take a bullet for him. Dunno…