Rachel Maddow’s Interview with Lev Parnas, Pt 2 - Highlights
The full transcript is at the link above. I’ve extracted the highlights below.
I left out Maddow’s commentary which was excellent, but I wanted to capture just the essence of the interview.
I’ve added section headings that reflect my interpretation of what Parnas was saying. The headings are my own words, not those of Parnas or Maddow.
Table of Contents - primary takeaways:
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Parnas feels Barr is the real power behind Trump. He and his family fear Barr.
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Parnas believes Joe Biden did nothing wrong – he helped rid Ukraine of a corrupt attorney general.
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The former Prosecutor General of Ukraine pushed to oust our Ambassador – in exchange, he would provide smears on Biden.
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Trump’s Energy Secretary, Rick Perry, is a co-conspirator.
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Parnas again emphasizes that the announcement they were extorting from Ukraine had to be about investigating Biden, not just corruption in general. It was all about smearing Biden, not rooting out corruption.
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Trump’s lawyer, Jay Sekulow, is a co-conspirator.
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Trump helped Giuliani as they tried to get a visa for Shokin so he could come to the U.S. and smear Biden.
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Trump shared his lawyer, John Dowd, with Parnas. Parnas believed Trump’s lawyer would help with his defense.
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Instead of defending Parnas,Trump’s lawyer pressured him to sacrifice himself to save Trump. That’s when Parnas fired him.
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Trump tried to fire Yovanovitch several times, but the State Department kept refusing before finally complying. Parnas witnessed one of the times Trump gave the order.
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The purpose of Giuliani’s smear campaign against Yovanovitch was to persuade Pompeo to comply with Trump’s order to fire her.
Parnas feels Barr is the real power behind Trump. He and his family fear Barr.
LEV PARNAS, INDICTED GIULIANI ASSOCIATE: My only objective is to get the truth out because I never thought I was doing anything wrong. I still, you know, I regret certain things that I did, because, like, you know, hurting the ambassador, you know?
MADDOW: Yes.
…
And right now, the scary part, and that’s what I keep mentioning and people don’t understand is, there’s a lot of Republicans that would go against him. The only reason – if you’ll take a look, and you know very well because you have been following, the difference between why Trump is so powerful now, and he wasn’t as powerful in ‘16 and ‘17 –
MADDOW: Uh-huh.
PARNAS: – he became that powerful when he got William Barr.
MADDOW: Yes.
PARNAS: People are scared. Am I scared? Yes, and because I think I’m more scared of our own Justice Department than of these criminals right now, because, you know, the scariest part is getting locked in some room and being treated as an animal when you did nothing wrong and – or when you’re not, you know, and that’s the tool they’re using.
I mean, just – because they’re trying (ph) to scare me into not talking and with God’s help, and with my lawyer next to me that I know will go bat for me no matter what, with the truth –
MADDOW: Yes.
PARNAS: – and I’m taking a chance.
My wife is scared. My kids are nervous.
…
Parnas believes Joe Biden did nothing wrong – he helped rid Ukraine of a corrupt attorney general.
MADDOW: In terms of the information, the allegations against Vice President Biden, Mr. Shokin makes allegations against Mr. Biden. Mr. Lutsenko also makes allegations against Mr. Biden. Do you believe that those allegations were true?
PARNAS: When we were dealing with it, when I was in the middle of the thick of things, I think I was kind of – I keep saying it’s a cultish environment being around President Trump because I mean, like, I’ve been in D.C. for two years, I never left the Trump Hotel type of situation.
So, I truly believe seeing different information that was handed to us at that time that Joe Biden was doing something illegal, not so much Hunter Biden but more Joe Biden.
But after analyzing all the evidence and sitting back and really – what’s it called – understanding what’s going on, I don’t think – I don’t think Vice President Biden did anything wrong. I think he was protecting our country and getting rid of probably a crooked attorney general.
And people used this to their advantage. A lot of rich people in Ukraine have their own agenda. And they use us here for their own political stuff. So I think this is – was a big one.
The former Prosecutor General of Ukraine pushed to oust our Ambassador – in exchange, he would provide smears on Biden.
MADDOW: In terms of the material that was handed over to intelligence, on March 22nd, Mr. Lutsenko texts you in Russian, there’s a translation that’s provided by the committee.
It says: It’s just that if you don’t make a decision about madam, you are bringing into question all my allegations including about B.
So when he says “madam” is he talking about –
PARNAS: Ambassador Yovanovitch.
MADDOW: – Ambassador Yovanovitch?
PARNAS: Correct.
MADDOW: And when he says, all my allegations including about B –
PARNAS: Burisma.
MADDOW: – is that about Burisma and Biden?
PARNAS: Yes.
MADDOW: OK. Do you know if it’s Burisma or Biden? I guess –
PARNAS: It was always Biden. Burisma, it was just – I mean, nobody cares about Burisma or Zlochevsky. It was – the concern was Biden, Hunter Biden.
MADDOW: In that text message to you, is Mr. Lutsenko saying in effect, listen, if you want me to make these Biden allegations, you’re going to have to get rid of this ambassador?
PARNAS: Absolutely.
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Trump’s Energy Secretary, Rick Perry, is a co-conspirator.
PARNAS: That’s when we flew to Paris, and in Paris, we met Rudy before – and when we were in Paris with Rudy, basically, that’s when I found out that Perry was going to [Zelensky’s inauguration in Ukraine] – they decided to send Perry instead [of Pence].
MADDOW: Energy Secretary Rick Perry would be going.
PARNAS: Correct.
MADDOW: Did you – you learned that from Mr. Giuliani?
PARNAS: Correct.
MADDOW: Was Mr. Perry, to your knowledge, aware of what you and Mr. Giuliani were trying to do in Ukraine of terms of getting these investigations announced?
PARNAS: I don’t know to what extent he was told about me. I don’t know what he was told. Definitely he knew about Rudy because he was told – he called Rudy on his way there to ask him what to discuss and Rudy told him that to make sure to give him the message.
MADDOW: Mr. Giuliani told Secretary Perry what you need to convey to the Ukrainian government they need to announce an investigation into Joe Biden.
PARNAS: Absolutely.
MADDOW: Do you know if part of the message that Mr. Giuliani conveyed to Secretary Perry was also that Ukraine would lose their military aid, they’d lose their U.S. aid, if they didn’t announce those investigations?
PARNAS: I don’t recall them having a specific conversation about that.
MADDOW: OK.
PARNAS: It was more of just telling him what he needs to do to announce it. I don’t know what other conversation they could have had prior or after.
MADDOW: Uh-huh.
PARNAS: But I know that there was another conversation that Perry called after the inauguration telling him that he spoke to Zelensky and Zelensky’s going to do it.
MADDOW: Perry says, I spoke with Zelensky and I got him to agree.
PARNAS: Yes.
MADDOW: I got him to agree to announce the investigation.
Parnas again emphasizes that the announcement they were extorting from Ukraine had to be about investigating Biden, not just corruption in general. It was all about smearing Biden, not rooting out corruption.
PARNAS: Yes, and they did an announcement but they didn’t announce [an investigation into Biden].
See, this was the whole key. They would kind of say every time somebody would meet Zelensky, they would, like, agree and then they would walk it back.
So they announced something about corruption that he’s going to get corruption but Giuliani blew his lid on that saying that’s not what we discussed. That it wasn’t supposed to be a corruption announcement. It has to be about Joe Biden and Hunter Biden and Burisma.
MADDOW: He said the name, Biden, needs to be spoken, was his insistence?
PARNAS: Always, always.
…
PARNAS: I know that there was another conversation that Perry called after the inauguration, telling him that he spoke to Zelensky and Zelensky’s going to do it.
…
Trump’s lawyer, Jay Sekulow, is a co-conspirator.
MADDOW: Did you ever have any communications with the counsel to the president, Jay Sekulow, during the time that you were involved in all this?
PARNAS: Several conversations. One, in particular, which I would have to refresh my memory by looking at my text messages with him, but had to do with – I think it was Viktor Shokin’s visa, or something to do with Ukraine. And Rudy was busy at the time and basically told me that Jay was aware of everything, that he brought him up to speed, that I could call him and he was on top of it.
MADDOW: Was – by that did he mean that Mr. Sekulow was part of this effort to try to get Ukraine to announce investigations?
PARNAS: Oh, absolutely. One of the things I think was the best quote ever was when Mr. Sondland said everybody’s in the loop and –
MADDOW: You believe that everybody was in the loop?
PARNAS: I don’t believe. I know.
MADDOW: Yes.
PARNAS: I know they were in the loop. I was witness of conversations and – you know, between them. And everybody was in the loop.
Everybody didn’t agree with the loop. I mean, Jay Sekulow didn’t agree with what Rudy was doing, but knew what he was doing.
MADDOW: How do you know that he didn’t agree with it?
PARNAS: Because I heard them talk about it.
MADDOW: And was his objection?
PARNAS: He didn’t want to be involved in the Ukraine stuff. He – I don’t know what his – you’d have to ask him, what his (INAUDIBLE). My feeling from the conversations, and watching the way Jay approached that situation was he just didn’t want to be a part of it, and wanted to stay away from it.
Trump helped Giuliani as they tried to get a visa for Shokin so he could come to the U.S. and smear Biden.
MADDOW: You mentioned that you were trying to get Mr. Shokin a visa to come to the United States.
PARNAS: Correct.
MADDOW: Why were you trying to do that?
PARNAS: Well, after the conversation Mr. Shokin had with Mr. Giuliani that we had on Skype, they had discussed on the range they were going to have Mr. Shokin come here, and Mr. Giuliani wanted to debrief him here in front of Mr. Lindsey Graham, and – certain other people like the attorney general.
MADDOW: Because Mr. Shokin was going to say what?
PARNAS: He was basically going to testify and say that Joe Biden basically forced him out because he was going to investigate Hunter Biden and Burisma.
MADDOW: Was the president, himself, ever involved in the effort to get this visa from Mr. Shokin? In the text messages that were released, Mr. Giuliani appears to tell you he’s going to get number one involved in this effort to get Mr. Shokin into the U.S.
PARNAS: Absolutely.
MADDOW: Was that a reference to the president?
PARNAS: Absolutely.
MADDOW: Did the president ever work on it?
PARNAS: Of course.
Trump shared his lawyer, John Dowd, with Parnas. Parnas believed Trump’s lawyer would help with his defense.
MADDOW: How did you end up with Mr. Downing and Mr. Dowd representing you when the impeachment inquiry had contacted you for testimony?
PARNAS: That’s a good question, Rachel.
First of all, what happened was we were in Vienna when we got notified that we had a congressional, what’s it called –
MADDOW: Request.
PARNAS: Request.
MADDOW: Yes.
PARNAS: And I was there with Victoria Toensing and Joe DiGenova working on the Dmytro Firtash case. And first people came to was them, and I said, what do I do? They said, call Rudy.
I called Rudy, what do we do? Rudy’s first response was, I don’t worry about it, forget it. I was like, what you mean don’t worry about it? You’re an attorney. Please help me get an attorney. Rudy came back and said, oh, I have a great, John Dowd.
And we were like, OK. We got excited. I didn’t know who John Dowd was. But I knew he was the president’s attorney. It was a very, like, you know, exciting situation even though it was, you know, all this going on. It’s still, you know, like in the Looney Tunes.
But I would I called John Dowd, introduced myself like Rudy connected us and at first everything was good. Then, like, 15 minutes later I get a call from him saying, we have a problem that I’m not going to probably be able to represent you.
I said, what happened? He goes, I’ve been speaking with Jay Sekulow, and, you know, because I was the president’s attorney, I’m still kind of doing work for the president, there’s a conflict of interest unless he wants to waive it. I don’t think the president is going to waive that conflict.
Because at that point, John Dowd didn’t know who I was also. He didn’t think I had any relationship with the president. And I responded to him, I said I think he will. I said –
MADDOW: You think the president will waive the conflict.
PARNAS: Absolutely.
MADDOW: And let Dowd represent you.
PARNAS: Absolutely. I said, give Rudy a call, I’m sure we can work this out, I said because this is very important.
About 15, 20 minutes later I got called back from John Dowd. He said, you’re one lucky guy, I just got called from Jay Sekulow, I got the permission and I’m getting it in writing shortly.
Instead of defending Parnas,Trump’s lawyer pressured him to sacrifice himself to save Trump. That’s when Parnas fired him.
MADDOW: You got a request from Congress to come – for you and Mr. Fruman to come testify to the impeachment investigation.
PARNAS: Yes.
MADDOW: You were inclined to say yes.
PARNAS: Absolutely, I had nothing to hide. We were not doing anything illegal.
MADDOW: Your lawyer, John Dowd, however, advised you not to cooperate and said the president would give you cover for not cooperating?
PARNAS: It was a little more than that. I was brought into John Dowd’s house and he got Jay Sekulow on the phone and also Rudy and Victoria, then basically they came up with a situation that said that because I worked for Rudy and because I worked for Victoria and because Rudy worked for the president, we had three-way privilege and that basically Pat Cipollone was going to be writing a letter to Congress telling them to – that nobody’s cooperating, and that would protect us under the same order and he would follow up with that.
Again, this was the president of the United States – so, I mean, I thought, OK. I said if – here’s all the information I have. I did my duty. I gave him whatever paperwork I had.
…
MADDOW: Mr. Dowd was your attorney for a time and then you changed attorneys.
PARNAS: I fired him in jail.
MADDOW: You fired him when you were in jail?
PARNAS: Yes.
MADDOW: What happened there?
PARNAS: And Mr. Downing.
Basically, when we were arrested, obviously, I had nowhere else to call. I didn’t know – we just retained Dowd and Downing. So I called Downing to come there and I started seeing in the process of the bail stuff the way things were going on that they were more concentrating on – I didn’t feel that they were trying to get me out, and at that point, I had a meeting with John Dowd and Downing inside the jail.
And John Dowd just instead of comforting me and, you know, trying to calm me down, telling me, like, it’s going to be OK, like, don’t worry, basically start talking to me like a drill sergeant and telling me, giving me orders, like, you know, be a good boy, like, you know.
MADDOW: He said “be a good boy”?
PARNAS: No, I don’t – I don’t want to quote him exactly on what the words, what he used in that because it was a while ago. I don’t remember exactly.
But it was – it was his condescending attitude toward basically, like, who do you think you are telling the president or Giuliani or anybody to, like, come out and because I – one of the things I said, I said, I can’t believe nobody is coming out in our defense and saying we didn’t do anything wrong, we’re good citizens, you know, we work.
And basically word for word, and then I said, if you don’t get out of here right now, something bad is going to happen because I don’t want to see the two of you.
And at that point, Downing hit the emergency button and the security took me out and took them out.
MADDOW: This is a very heated confrontation. You told Downing and Dowd to get out.
PARNAS: I threw them out.
MADDOW: Were they telling you to sacrifice yourself in order to protect the president?
PARNAS: That’s what I felt.
MADDOW: Is the implication of this story of the lawyers that you feel, that people loyal to the president and close to the president were trying to influence your defense and your case in a way that was against your interests but in the president’s interests?
PARNAS: Absolutely. I think they tried to keep me quiet.
…
Trump tried to fire Yovanovitch several times, but the State Department kept refusing before finally complying. Parnas witnessed one of the times Trump gave the order.
PARNAS: The president kept firing her and couldn’t (ph) – and she wouldn’t leave. So nobody could understand what was going on.
MADDOW: Public information, she was removed, at the time that she was removed, she was back in the United States at the end of the April, you’re saying that the president tried to fire before that.
PARNAS: He fired her probably at least, to my knowledge, at least four, five times. He even had a breakdown and scream, “fire her” to Madeline (ph), his assistant, the secretary, before he fired her. He said, Mr. President, I can’t do that.
MADDOW: He was directing the State Department to remove her and the State Department was refusing?
PARNAS: Correct.
MADDOW: But the basis of your belief that the president had tried to remove Ambassador Yovanovitch multiple times and it for some reason didn’t work is because you talked to the president about that?
PARNAS: About firing her, I spoke to the president once about that, or twice. Once or twice. Once directly at our dinner when he fired her actually at the dinner which was the most surprising thing ever I –
MADDOW: Tell me – tell me more.
PARNAS: Basically, at that dinner, we had a conversation, there was, like, six of us there, it was an intimate dinner.
MADDOW: At the White House?
PARNAS: It was – no, it was a Trump Hotel. It was a private – like area there. Looks like a little White House.
MADDOW: And the president was there?
PARNAS: Oh, absolutely. The president was there, his son, Don Jr., was there. I don’t know how the issue is – the conversation came up, but I do remember me telling the president the ambassador was bad-mouthing him and saying he was going to get impeached, something to that effect.
And at that time, he turned around to John DeStefano, who was his aide at the time, and said, “fire her”. And we all – there was a silence in the room. He responded to him, said Mr. President, we can’t do that right now because Pompeo hasn’t been confirmed yet. That Pompeo is not confirmed yet and we don’t have – this is when Tillerson was gone, but Pompeo was confirmed, so they go, wait until (INAUDIBLE).
So several conversations he mentioned it again. I don’t know how many times at that dinner, once or twice or three times. But he fired her several times.
MADDOW: He reiterated that she should be fired then he was ordering her to be fired.
PARNAS: Correct.
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The purpose of Giuliani’s smear campaign against Yovanovitch was to persuade Pompeo to comply with Trump’s order to fire her.
PARNAS: That was not the only time he fired her because he fired her at least four other occasions that Rudy Giuliani went to the White House, had conversations with him and then came back and then informed me, Victoria, and Joe about what transpired. He fired her when he gave an order to Mike Pompeo once, which he didn’t do, Secretary Pompeo didn’t fire her.
Then Rudy came back and he told him, go speak to Pompeo. Rudy went to speak to Pompeo. They got into it.
Then they had another meeting at the White House where he told Bolton to fire her. Bolton didn’t want to fire her. Tell Pompeo to fire here.
Rudy got into it with all of them again. And at one point, he told Madeleine (ph) to fire her.
So, I mean, that was becoming comical because I couldn’t understand, you’re the president – that’s one of the things – when I say comical, it’s not more comical, but at that point, it was more of affirmation to me that there was people against the president of the United States if they’re not listening to his orders.
So that’s where I think the smear campaign started coming about. I think it was like a boost to them to help him if the media started, like, egging him on, that there was really something there, then he would just tweet and fire her.
